LS 4 levels and three interfaces

clark (
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:14:15 +0100

LS and Jonathan,
  I had decided to back off and lay out the meat of lila on my screen
but I
keep getting sucked in.
  Jonathan it seems that you and I are the two non-mystics on the squad
we have to support each other :-).
Jonathan wrote:
If we are going to talk about the *4* levels, we must discuss the 3
interfaces which define them (and ignore Pirsig's chaos, whatever that

Clark wrote:
  My concept of the "Chaos" level holds that its beginning occurred at
formation of the physical basis of the universe. In my view this
basis was formed at the time of the "Big Bang" when the falling levels
energy locked in the physical parameters which determined the future
of development of the physical universe. These physical parameters set
limits for the congregation of matter that determined the size limits of
the objects that we observe in the universe. Among other things it
in the Earth being large enough to hold an atmosphere yet small enough
that nuclear processes were not sustainable. In other words our home is
cool and gassy. These parameters also determined the range of
that were available for the operation of the evolutionary processes that
resulted in the Earth and its manifestations as we observe them now. In
this view the entire range of happenings from the beginning until the
present are an evolutionary process. In my opinion this places the
level squarely in the mainstream of evolution. The whole process is, to
a seamless series of events from the beginning until now. The beginning
also the origin of the Quality that informs Pirsig's concept of the MOQ.
Pirsig's terms this view can account for all of the happenings from the
"Big Bang" until the present.

Jonathan wrote:

Thus, following from a discussion which began in the sci.philosophy.meta
newsgroup. I see the inorganic-biological-social levels as a continuum
(with distinct properties at the centre of each level), but the
intellect as being removed by abstraction (at last, one point for
non-fuzziness). However, I must admit that intellect must have EVOLVED
gradually, though I have yet to reconcile how abstraction can ever be
gradual (final score 4-1 for fuzziness).

Clark wrote:
  The idea of intellect being an evolutionary product poses no problem
me. We can look at the process of human evolution as we currently
understand it and see a continual development of human complexity from
earliest beginnings until the present. We can trace logically from the
Neanderthal thru Cro-Magnon (may have been concurrent) probably as
bands, thru the hunter-gatherers, (beginnings of social development),
the development of agriculture (allowed for larger societies) and so
We can see the development of ideas from the beginning of deliberate
burial, thru small stone amulets and figures, thru cave paintings, thru
stonehenge and such like, thru domestication of animals, thru larger
agricultural societies with political organization, even to the G-----n
Greeks. All of this seems to point to an ever increasing cephalization
humanity. I have no particular difficulty with arriving at the supreme
pinnacle of wisdom and intelligence that we occupy today which allows us
forsee the consequences of each and every one of our actions and
from taking any action that is detrimental to the only home that we have
the universe. How can we get any smarter than that.
  I seem to remember someone questioning why there is no evidence of
evolution in operation today. There are squirrels on either side of the
Grand Canyon which have evolved separately for such a length of time
they can no longer interbreed. I feel sure there are other instances of
which we are unaware. In any case, it has been such a short time in
evolutionary terms since we have been able to transmit experience
writing that we have no record of evolutionary changes. Remember, we are
talking some 15 billion years for the evolution of the universe and some
three million years for the evolution of humanity versus about 70 years
a human life provided one doesn't smoke :-). I'll bet that if someone
a strain of chimpanzees and made arrangements to nurture them thru about
three million years of selection that one could come out with a
Rolls or Model T, or maybe even a Wal-Mart.
  Jonathan, you and I have chosen the more difficult road which forces
to have logical reasons for the things that we observe around us.
  It seems clear to me that the four SPoV levels are just a convenient
division that Pirsig made for explanatory purposes. Remember, he had a
staggering problem in trying to get his Metaphysics of Quality ideas
in the face of innumerable Gods. I am assuming there is a different God
each believer just as there is a different level of Quality for each
Many Truths.
  Hang in there Jonathan. I still think we are right. Ken

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