LS Re: Soc. and Int values

Bodvar Skutvik (
Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:17:54 +0100

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:30:09 -0400 (EDT)
Donald T Palmgren wrote to multiple recipients of lilasq
Subject: LS Soc. and Int values

> > Platt:
> > Well, if you say so. I'm having enough trouble with understanding MOQ-speak
> > without trying to figure out Hegel-speak. To put it as simply as I can, what
> > sets S-O thinking apart from animals (besides logic) is that even though
> > they may know that they are separate from others (even cells seem to know
> > that), they don't know that they know. We do. That's the kicker. When you
> > know that you know you're egaged in S-O thinking, you've arrived at the
> > Intellectual Level.
I agree Platt. Also to what you say about Hegel-speak :-)!

> I agree except for the last line. pirsig says the first
> intelectual value patterns formed in the 6th cen when Socrates drank the
> hemlock. But I think humans 'knew they knew' stuff well before then -- at
> least 5,000 years before then. That's why I'd identify S-O thinking
> primarily as a social value -- one that was originaly in service of
> Biological (Darwinian) values, but evolved into something else.

Platt and Donny!
Even if I am down with a cold, I had to drag myself to the keyboard
to comment this. Pirsig does not say that (sic) :".....the first
intelectual value patterns formed in the 6th cen when Socrates drank
the hemlock....." What he says is that that event marked the
breakthrough for the Subject-Object thinking AS A
METAPHYSICS. (But I'm happy that you,Donny, also equalize
S-O (M) with the Q-Intellect: that is my SOTAQI as you know).

Still, 'breakthrough' isn't 'emergence' which in turn isn't
'occurrence': this is a sequence of rising importance. You (and
Platt) are right: S-O thinking emerged long before that. I would say
at the time Jaynes describe it in his "Bicameral" idea - around
Homer's time (4th millennium? BC). But even long before that
humankind spoke and "thought" and painted great paintings, but that
was Intellectual patterns still "in the service of" society; of the
common myth.

Great, we're approaching some sort of agreement at last. Back to bed


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