LS Soc and Int

Donald T Palmgren (
Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:45:23 +0100

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Bodvar Skutvik wrote:

> Regarding the rest of your impressive piece: I do accept your way of
> putting things - generally. The finer distinctions of
> O-consciousness, S-consciousness, S-O consciousness, S-O thinking, A
> not A and Aristotelian logic etc. obviously means a lot to you while
> my approach is more intuitive, but OK I follow you all the way. Your
> archeological digging for the roots of Intellect went through many
> strata, but as long as you found the Troy who cares!

        Thanks.... (I think ?)

> You went on:
> > I have an intuitive hunch that Phaedrus' analytic knife is at the
> > center of it. A and not-A, split right down the middle -- cut
> > appart by the analytic knife. That seems to be the mark of
> > intelectual rhythms all right. But if that's it, then the
> > Weastern/Greek tradition is the only tradition to develop
> > intelectual values. Is that what we whant to say? Because it's true
> > that in the East, in Africa, Australia, and Native America the
> > socities stayed closer to that mythic, Mythos thinking where A can
> > be not-A and A and B readily transform into one-another. So if we
> > identify Intlevtual rhythms w/ the presence of the Analythic Knife,
> > then we'd have to conclude that those cultures are w/o intelectual
> > value
> Yes, I believe that's what he says: Western tradition is the only
> culture to embrace Intellect's values as the leading light, but - NB
> - only the final world-view stage! (you would perhaps say
> Aristotelian logic stage?). In my essay I suggest that the
> proto-quality hibernated in the non-Western cultures, perhaps more
> "mythic" in Africa, Australia and Native America than the Far
> East. And I think it will eventually come to an East-West meeting;
> the East becoming more "Aristotelian" while the West transgresses
> the S-O (Intellect) stage. Isn't that what we are doing?

        I'm not sure this is exactly what pirsig was thinking... but for
me it works, I like it, I say "Okay!"

> About renaming the SOTAQI. Hmmmm. I think it's useful to keep
> the S-O intact (and the Q-intellect too). Your story of its emergence
> contains those acronyms, and to tie a development of such enormous
> proportions to a historical person's name is a little "parochial".
> Couldn't the 'T' be replaced by something more edible to you? 'L' for
> logic for instance?

        "Aristotilan logic" is a term i got from Campbell, who also uses
"waking," or "daylight logic" (as opposed to dream logic where things
always transform into one-another w/o hard-and-fast distinctions).
"A/not-A" also works...
        But you're basically right that it's good to have the S-o in theer
because all these distinctions grow from the I-This distinction. "SOL" is
good w/ me! "SOT" sounds too much like just "the ability to think" or
just "consciousness" -- which, if it has any place at all, it' at the
social level.

        I don't know... you started w/ SOM=QI and i've been picking away
at it like a bad tooth. I hope you dont feel that I'm picking nits, and
think that this is valuable.

So for clearification:
        Obcect-consciousness = a recognition that *That* is not *me*
-- ie. my cat chaseing her ball. This is a Biological value.
Subject-consciousness is implicit in O-Con. but is unrealized.

        Subject-Consciousness (or S-O Con, or SOT)= "knowing that you
know" as, I believe, Platt put it. This is, I believe, the begining of
social PoVs. It provides the definition for person/non-person, mind-ed
being/mindless being or however you want to put it... selfhood.

        Subject-object logic (if that's what we want to call it) = (put
simply) the work of Pheadrus' Analytic Knife -- the separating out of B
and C from A, and then B into D and E...

And lastly:
        Subject-object metaphysics = A metphysical system (we have yet to
debate what *that* is) built upon the ontological seperatness of the
(knowing)subject and it's (known)object.

> Good thinking Donny, You'll be promoted to our chief ideologist soon.

        Cool!!! :)


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